Effective feedback

In the second episode of the Skilled Managers Podcast, Richard Saundry talks to  Mark Makin and Carole Sayer from Acas. Carole and Mark are experienced mediators and conciliators and have worked with a wide range of managers and organisations to help them manage conflict more effectively. Mark and Carole give their top tips on providing effective feedback but also discuss some of the challenges managers face in having difficult conversations with their staff.

Transcript

Importance of Effective Feedback in Management

Speaker 1 0:00

Hello , I'm Professor Richard Saundry , and this is the Skill Managers Podcast . In today's episode , I'm joined by Mark Makin and Carol Sayer from ACAS . In today's episode , I'm joined by Mark Makin and Carol Sayer from ACAS . Carol and Mark are mediators and conciliators and they've worked with a wide range of managers and organisations over the years to help them manage conflict more effectively . Therefore , they're exactly the right people to explore the crucial topic of feedback . Mark and Carol give their top tips on providing effective feedback , but they also discuss some of the challenges that managers face in having difficult conversations with their staff . So , without further ado , here we go . I have to say , as a manager I'm not a manager at the moment , but I have been in the recent past I've always found giving feedback quite daunting . To be honest , it's something that I've always found quite challenging . So I'd like to start off really by asking perhaps you , carol why do you think giving feedback is so important ?

Speaker 2 1:15

It really is crucial . Good feedback regularly is crucial , richard . It lets staff know where they stand , whether it's praise or you're highlighting areas for improvement to them . If you can give feedback in the right way , then it should produce good results . That will engage people , and giving feedback can sort out problems a little early on and it can stop them getting worse , because sometimes little problems can become big ones if they're left and then become difficult to unravel . And I suppose the big thing is that , um , good feedback is part of a line manager's job . It's a really big part of their job to be able to talk to their staff , to be comfortable talking to their staff and just getting the best out of them , because that then shows that they're a credible manager . If they can be seen to be tackling difficult issues , they will get that respect that they so want from their team and uh , mark over to you .

Speaker 1 2:12

I mean what ? Why do you think it's so important ?

Speaker 3 2:15

well . I'd echo everything that carol said , um , but I think it's probably useful to think about on a really basic and fundamental level why we bother in the first place giving feedback and what what the aim is . And at a really fundamental level , I think what we're talking about is we want to encourage more of those positive and productive and constructive behaviors and discourage the less productive , negative type behaviors . So , as well as the things that carol's already talked about , I think there's a whole host of other benefits . It is that clarity . It brings that clarity . It is the early warning system that carol talks about . Uh , it's part of the manager's job to do this , but I think , in terms of things like communications and it opens up those communication channels , if feedback is given on a regular basis , then it becomes the norm and people get into that habit of having those open and constructive conversations . I think because the communications are good . It does bring clarity to the role and the purpose .

Speaker 3 3:21

There's a lot of spin off things from this in terms of it reduces conflict . The purpose there's a lot of spin-off things from this in terms of it reduces conflict . We all understand each other . We know why we're doing certain things . We know if we're doing them well or if we're not doing them quite so well . So there's less room for the friction and the conflicts to creep in , I suppose . A couple of final things . It's motivational if it is done well . A lot of studies over the years show that one of the most motivational things for employees is recognition of a job well done . So whether we're giving critical feedback or whether we're giving positive and a pat on the back type feedback , then that brings its benefits as well . Yeah , don't forget development .

Speaker 1 4:04

Yeah , so I think people often associate it with giving a negative message or at least a critically constructive message . But , as you say , that sort of recognition is really important , so that people actually are aware that they're doing the right things and they're getting a pat on the back for that . I think one of the issues that I find is that a lot of people say to me the only time they ever get any feedback from their managers tends to be every year during the annual appraisal round , if they're lucky . I mean , I hear a lot of people who will say well , we don't even have that quite often , or it's a bit of a tick box exercise . So again , mark , how often do you think managers should be giving feedback ?

Speaker 1 4:44

And if I can be devil's advocate for a second , I think a lot of managers would say I don't really have time to do this . I've got my boss on my back trying to , you know , about targets we need to hit or keep the day job going , and I just don't have time to sit down and be , you know , having an hour's conversation with everybody you know on a regular basis . So what's the ? How do you get around that sort of problem ?

Speaker 3 5:07

I think we're talking about um , whatever suits the circumstances and what is appropriate given the role , given the individuals concerned , because we all have different styles , we all have different preferences . Some people prefer constant and regular feedback . Other people are quite happy to to have less regular feedback , but I'm a firm believer in in regular and often and by that I'm not talking about a formal meeting , I'm not talking about us blocking out an hour or two . What I'm talking about is catch-ups . It's almost like a coaching approach from from the manager , where they will have a regular conversation with each member of their team . They will catch up and it doesn't need to take that long . It can be just a few minutes .

Speaker 3 5:52

If everything's going great and there are no issues , there are no developmental things that we need to pick up on , nothing needs to change . There's no information that I need to give to you , there's nothing that you want to raise with me , and it can be quite quick , but it does still keep those communication channels open . I've worked with companies recently over the last few years actually who started to go away from that three months , six months , nine months , 12 months type approach to more of a coaching type approach , and they have invested in managers . They've trained managers and leaders as coaches so that they're equipped to have these regular conversations with with their team members , and these are far more productive than the . Let's go through the motions at the six month point . Let's treat it like a school report where we've been looking back , but let's talk about how we drive performance and how we make things better .

Speaker 1 6:51

Yeah , and I guess the important part of that is organisations giving managers some space and time to undertake that sort of role , because it can be quite time-consuming .

Speaker 3 7:02

Well , I think one of the things that I will often say to organisations or to managers individual managers , if they raise that point is spending a little bit of time on a regular basis . It's not that taxing . It doesn't eat up into your day that much , but it will save you a lot of effort and hassle and time in the long run . So it's almost like an invest now to save later on okay , carol , what do you think about ?

Speaker 1 7:30

about that , I mean , can you give too much feedback ? Do you think , or , or what would you say to what mark's just been talking about ?

Speaker 2 7:36

obviously I agree with mark . What he says is correct . Um , yeah , I suppose you can't give too too much feedback . If it's um , the appraisals are just seen as being something that has to be done , and if it's done by the manager , who doesn't really believe in the process , that's when it can get a little bit too , much , or even if it seemed to be over .

Speaker 2 7:57

If the manager comes across as overbearing or critical , they might even see it as harassment , especially if there's a performance issue in there as well . So you could get a complaint if that person is seen as someone's on their back all the time . On the other hand , if someone doesn't get enough feedback , then they don't get the direction or the help or the support that's needed and employees can be left in the dark . Are we actually doing this right ? And that's particularly relevant at the moment where we're all sort of working from home and and people are in their homes .

Speaker 2 8:28

People can very easily feel sort of isolated in in that way , and what we've found as well are some of the companies that I've been working with . If they're not sure , the best thing that the manager can do is ask , ask the team . Are we talking enough ? Have I got the balance right here ? Am I on your back a little bit too much ? Do you need a bit of space or do you need a little bit of extra help from me ? That's really really a good key thing to do Really can work through the issues .

Speaker 1 8:57

Yeah , I think that's really really good advice . Mark , you wanted to come in on that I think .

Speaker 3 9:03

Yeah , I think it's interesting . Carol raised the current situation now with the pandemic and the virus . Yeah , and I still speak to my contacts in these organisations on a regular basis and what seems to be a common theme is that the organisations that have adopted this coaching type approach for feedback and have embedded that they seem to be having far fewer problems around the virus and people being unsettled and health issues etc . Than companies that are still sticking to the old tried and tested approach .

Speaker 2 9:38

yeah , because I think the communication naturally happens yeah , I think communication is absolutely the key regular and often just little bits . Just telling people where they are , what they're doing is is important and that cuts down that rumor mill , the perceptions don't start going and people know where they are and what's happening .

Speaker 1 9:57

That's been really key throughout this pandemic yeah , and just building on that , in terms of organisations responding to COVID , lots of people working more remotely having conversations through things like Zoom and Microsoft Teams and all these other sorts of platforms what sort of difficulties do you think does that throw up to , you know , for managers giving

Navigating Remote Feedback Challenges

Speaker 1 10:23

feedback ? You said , mark , that obviously some organisations who have really developed some quite proactive approaches to this perhaps are having fewer problems . But a lot of organisations are coming to this fairly fresh and new . They might not have that background . They might not have managers who are trained in that way .

Speaker 1 10:39

What sort of specific problems are there in the new world of remote working for giving sort of good feedback ? Is there a danger , for example , if we say little and often ? Is there a danger that people work at home and feel like the managers are always on their back ? You know constantly wanting to have a zoom call every five minutes . I mean , I don't know about you , but you know I find it much more exhausting having a 30 minute zoom call than catching up with somebody in the corridor or having a quick coffee in the canteen . So you know what are some of the problems , do you think ?

Speaker 3 11:09

I think you've probably seen some of the horror stories that have been reported in various journals , on the press and where managers have insisted that their team , when they're working at home because of the pandemic , leave their video cameras on all day . Obviously , way , way over the top , I think carol's point earlier on about ask them , ask your team members , ask the people you work with , what's going to work for you ? What's what ? What's going to be positive for you ? Don't overdo it . Um , every 10 minutes every day , for example , it might be okay in some circumstances , but for the vast majority of workers , that's what ? That's probably too much . I think one of the biggest difficulties is the fact that digital you miss so much yeah with digital , then you would pick up if you were doing these things face toto-face .

Speaker 3 12:03

I think that's probably the biggest difficulty with the remote delivery of it .

Speaker 1 12:09

So this is a tricky question for you , Carol , and I've not prepped you on this , so I apologise . But how do you think one can get over what Mark said ? I mean not being able to see that body language . Sometimes you know . If you are face-to-face , you can get a sense if someone's not quite right , or you know if something's perhaps going on behind the scenes . Much more difficult if you're just having a conversation over over a video call , particularly if you can't see that individual . Is there any any ways in which you can get over that , do you think ?

Speaker 2 12:40

I think a manager can , if they've got the camera on , really look at that person and if they know their member of staff and if they're their manager , I hope that they will know them really well . They will be looking not just for the words that are said , but the little nuances that you can see on camera . Do they look OK ? Is there anything different about them ? And question what they see differently . Look , you're a bit quiet . You're not normally as quiet as this . Are you all right ? Is there anything different ? Is there anything I can help ? Or just casual questions ? Everything all right at home ? Family , okay , how are you managing ? Are you all well ? Just questions , casual questions into the well-being of the individual , just to check and picking up on signs that you actually notice .

Speaker 2 13:20

I'm ringing you maybe once a week . Is that enough ? Do you need more support ? Am once a week . Is that enough ? Do you need more support ? Am I giving you enough ? I gave you that task to do . I noticed it was done well . Did you have everything that you needed or is there anything that we could help you with ?

Speaker 3 13:33

yeah , I think . Sorry , sorry , richard you mentioned then that sometimes , um , the camera isn't switched on and that can be an indicator sometimes that something needs to need to go a little bit deeper . Recently an employer was explaining to me about he had concerns about one of his employees and they'd set up one of their regular catch-ups and they'd said and I do want you on camera . And the individual had responded and said but that means that I'm going to have to get dressed and I'm going to have to have a shower and I'm going to have to do my hair , et cetera . And the manager's response to that was exactly yeah , they had those concerns . So there's all sorts of things , as Carol was saying , that you can pick up on . There might be that trigger to dig a little bit deeper .

Speaker 1 14:21

Okay , okay , and I think so . One of the reasons that managers and and I count myself in this in this bracket certainly have concerns about giving feedback and might avoid it quite often is because they worry about being too negative . So , particularly where there's an issue , there's an issue about performance . Perhaps I'll give you a good example . I used to manage a number of people and they were quite close colleagues , and I really did worry about giving negative feedback , particularly because I I'm worried they might just come back to me and say well , you know , you're not quite , you're not so good either . So what are some of the different different techniques you can use to give critical feedback , but hopefully in a more positive and constructive way ? Mark , what sort of techniques would you recommend that managers use to give them a bit of confidence in having those slightly more difficult feedback conversations ?

Speaker 3 15:16

I think people are probably aware that there are all sorts of theoretical models out there concerned with giving feedback , from fast to praise , sandwich and aid , etc . Etc . Which give you the steps or give you an idea of the steps that you want to be following . I , I personally , like to keep it very , very simple and I like to start off with observation , and it's always about what I have seen , what I have heard . It's never about it's being reported to me or it's been told to me . It's always I've seen this , I've picked up on this , I've heard this and this is the situation that you want to be dealing with .

Speaker 3 16:00

I then move on to talk about impact . So , when these things have happened that I've picked up on , what does that mean in practice ? So , from an organizational point of view sometimes , from the team's point of view sometimes , and then sometimes from my point of view as well , and it is that , because you did x , y and z , or because you didn't do x , y and z , what that means is so linking whatever it is that you want to talk about to outcomes . I think it makes it much more real that way and it makes makes it much more meaningful in terms of the feedback is about taking us away from the personal and moving it to to the issue let's talk about the behaviors , let's talk about the actionsours , let's talk about the actions .

Speaker 3 16:44

So it's not entirely blame-free , it's still something they have or haven't done , but we're talking about the practicalities , the actions . So we're depersonalising it from that point of view .

Speaker 1 16:56

That's fascinating , carol . What about you ? What sort of things would you recommend to a manager lacking confidence who likes to sweep things under the carpet like me ? What should I do if I'm facing a really difficult feedback conversation ? Do you think ?

Speaker 2 17:11

Prepare . Prepare what you're going to say , think about what you actually want . What is it you want ? What's the outcome ? What are're looking for ? Is it a change in performance ? Is it a change in behaviour ? And then think about the words that you're going to use to get the message , or get your message across , so that it's going to be received in the way that you want it to be received by that individual . And then prepare yourself . Prepare your body language , make sure that you're ready , and then hold the . Prepare your body language , make sure you're ready , and then hold the meeting and say what you have to do to get that is there a balance there between between sort of formality and and and informality

Effective Feedback Delivery Strategies

Speaker 2 17:52

?

Speaker 1 17:52

I suppose what I'm trying to say is is there a danger that sometimes that some people might prepare , if you like , almost like write out a script and sort of they're almost like reading from that and then to to the other extreme , which is , you know , you've not even thought about this and you're having a doing everything off the cuff . Is there a sort of a nice medium between , like you say , doing a bit of preparation but trying to make that a human conversation as well ?

Speaker 2 18:16

absolutely yes , you have to . You have to mentally prepare yourself and know what you're saying to a degree , and of course , it'll depend on what the issue is is as well . If it's a small issue , then it is more of a conversational small thing . If it's a serious thing , then you really have to think about the words and really prep yourself to say them in a way that comes across as positive and as , as Mark said , what the issue here is the behavior or the performance . This is not personal . So , for example , if they haven't hit the target , it's the target that's not been hit . It's not about them not hitting the targets . The problem is the fact that they were down 50% on their target last month . So that is the issue .

Speaker 1 19:02

And I think a lot of that comes back to where we started off with this conversation actually about having regular discussions with staff , because if there is a problem , it's going to come as less of a surprise . I know when I've sometimes taken over a team and I'm having a conversation with somebody who perhaps hasn't met their targets for the last two or three years and they say , well , no one's ever spoken to me about this , and it does come as a big shock , and then it is a really difficult conversation . If it's part of an ongoing dialogue , it's a little bit easier to have those problematic conversations , isn't it ?

Speaker 3 19:32

It is . It's that early warning system that we mentioned earlier on . We can pick things up early , before they develop into bigger problems , and it's much easier to resolve at those early stages . I think something carol said a couple of minutes ago about that conversation we want this to be genuine , so we don't want to over script it , but we want to think carefully about what we're trying to achieve here and what sort of behaviors we are trying to change . So , from that point of view , yeah , have something in mind , do the preparation , but please don't let it come across as mechanical and robotic , because that that won't work . If it comes across as conversational , that's going to work much better I think you might have .

Speaker 1 20:14

You might have somebody , for example , who's really not used to having those sorts of conversations and just sort of writing out a couple of words or a couple of things like that just as a , as a sort of a memoir or something , just to just to jog the jog the memory , because it's a quite pressurized situation sometimes . So that sort of thing might , might be really useful . It will be .

Speaker 3 20:35

But don't over egg it , so we haven't got . I will will be saying X , y and Z in this order of these words . I need to cover this , I need to talk about this . This is what I want to say and what I want to achieve , and then make it conversational from that .

Speaker 1 20:52

Yeah , there's nothing more terrifying than if you're on the receiving end of this , where you see your manager suddenly pulling out a sheaf of papers and starting to read from the top line , because you know it's going to be really bad , don't you , carol ? What ? What do you think of the major sort of traps that you see that managers fall into when giving feedback ? What are sort of the , some of the , the , the , the don'ts . Rather , we talked a lot about what they should be doing . You know what's , what's some of the things that managers tend to do which perhaps they should try to avoid a little bit um , I suppose the first thing really is they come across as not being very comfortable with the situation .

Speaker 2 21:25

They don't like delivering bad news . They don't like or they're worried about getting a reaction , so their body language can be all over the place and they don't feel as though they're in control of the situation , or they don't look as though they're in control and they don't come across as empathetic towards the individual . They might not have prepared ahead , so what they say is misunderstood or misinterpreted by the employee and again it might not come across as how they meant it to do , which causes like misunderstandings and or it could lead to the person becoming either angry or upset or just really not do any good to the relationship with the manager . Um , and managers can be perceived by their teams as only giving feedback when it's bad news . That's another thing .

Speaker 2 22:14

Yeah , we've hit , of course , where we hear all the time a lot about the walk of shame as someone goes along the corridor to the manager's office and it fills the employee with dread and their colleagues with curiosity as to what on earth is going on in there , and everyone knows it's going to be bad . So , leading on this , managers don't always feed back on successes . So people need to know that they've done a good job . Uh as well . It's really good for them , it's uplifting , it's motivational .

Speaker 3 22:45

It gives that manager um the confidence to carry on and know that they've done a job that's been well done yeah , yeah , mark any , any again , any pitfalls that you particularly noticed that carol's not not mentioned again , I agree with everything Carol said , but what I would add is , occasionally you will see managers who will prevaricate , they'll avoid , they'll delay , or the message when they eventually come to deliver it it's so wrapped up in loads of superfluous issues that the message doesn't get through . So a little bit more direct . Sometimes , I think managers , particularly if they're not comfortable with a challenging or difficult conversation they need to try to be direct to make sure that the message get through , gets through clear and don't talk about everything else in an attempt to avoid the actual issue that you're there to address .

Speaker 1 23:40

Yeah , yeah , okay . So just just to finish with , and you've you've given us lots to think about and a lot of really useful tips and strategies that managers can use , and this might be quite a difficult one to finish with , but I just wonder whether you could think about maybe two key things . We had , so two golden rules for managers in terms of giving good feedback . What might they be , carol , I'm going to try and limit you to two , two , okay .

Speaker 2 24:08

Really think about what you want from that conversation . When you're giving them that feedback , do you want them to do anything any different or behave any differently ? What will be the success factor from you ? And the other thing is , when you're going in to have a conversation or provide some feedback , really think about getting your body language in gear so that the words that come out of your mouth all measure up together with your body language and the tone of voice , so everything matches , so you come across as genuine , professional and competent at what you're doing .

Speaker 1 24:40

Fantastic , Mark . How about you ? A couple of key things .

Speaker 3 24:44

It's a two Difficult , I think . Then make sure that it's timely and it's delivered as near to the event that you want to talk about as possible . It's far more effective that way , when it's fresh in people's minds , I think . Secondly , it's more more effective that way when it's fresh in people's minds , I think . Secondly , it's more of a practical tip .

Fostering Constructive Feedback Conversations

Speaker 3 25:03

We've touched on how we should depersonalize this as much as we can . If it's appropriate to do that , yeah , I think a way of doing that is is to turn criticisms into questions . So , from a practical point of view , rather than saying you didn't do a particularly good job on that , maybe you could change it around and say do you think there's any way we could have improved on what we did with that one ? So , from a practical level , try and again , depersonalise it . Turn criticism into questions . It's easier then for people to talk about it more openly .

Speaker 1 25:36

Yeah , and I suppose solutions then come from the individual concerns , so potentially they're more openly . Yeah , and I suppose solutions then come from the individual concerns , so potentially they're more sustainable .

Speaker 3 25:43

Mm-hmm , there's more ownership and buying that way .

Speaker 1 25:46

Okay , well , thank you very much . That's been fascinating and I'm sure everybody listening to this will be able to take away quite a lot they can put into practice . Thanks , both of you for being with us today . Thank you .

Speaker 2 25:57

Thank you .