Skilled Managers
In this podcast Professor Richard Saundry, one of the UKs leading authorities in conflict management will be exploring the challenges faced by managers dealing with conflict and difficult issues at work. Richard, with the help of a range of invited guests will discuss some of the thorny problems that managers are confronted with and provide expert advice on what managers can do to resolve issues effectively.
Skilled Managers
What is conflict and how do we manage it?
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In the first episode of the Skilled Managers Podcast, we take an in-depth look at conflict at work. Professor Richard Saundry is joined by two of Acas’s most experienced advisors, Sarah Podro and Dave Cook. Together, they try to answer three key questions - what causes conflict at work? What impact does conflict have on those involved? What can managers do to prevent, contain and resolve conflict?
Understanding Conflict at Work
Speaker 1Hello , I'm Professor Richard Saundry and this is the School Managers Podcast . In our first episode , we're going to be looking at conflict at work . Now , to do this , I'm joined by two of ACAS's most experienced advisors , sarah Podrow and Dave Cook , and we try to answer three key questions what causes conflict at work , what impact does conflict have on those involved , and what can managers do to prevent , contain and resolve conflict ? So here we go . I hope you enjoyed the episode . Yes , to begin with , I'd like to talk about what we mean by conflict , Sarah . I find that people tend to define conflict in lots of different ways . For you , what is conflict ?
Speaker 2So , for me , conflict is where you have a disagreement that is disruptive . So it's not just two people feeling fed up with each other , but it's an actual clash that means that they won't or they can't work together effectively . So you know , one extreme . You might see it manifested in a stand up row in the office , but more frequently it manifests when people are either just not speaking to each other , not communicating , or they're communicating with each other , aggressively or passive aggressively .
Speaker 1So what we're saying is that conflict can actually be manifest in lots of different ways . I mean , we tend to think about it , or a lot of people tend to think about it , in terms of very specific occurrences like employment tribunals or disciplinary issues or grievances , but , as we're saying , it can be quite subtle in many ways .
Speaker 2Yeah , no , absolutely . And you know , a tribunal is the sort of the end of the road when sort of conflict . Basically there hasn't been a resolution to that conflict which has started in the workplace , but that's , yeah , that's the end result , rather than conflict itself . But yes , I think in the main it's actually it's much more subtle .
Speaker 1So , dave , for you , what's your view on this ? What ? What view is conflict ?
Speaker 3Well , for me it's simply when people don't get along . They can disagree , either openly , so there could be arguments in front of colleagues , for instance , or rebuking one another or it could could be covert . You know , things like undermining behaviour which some may notice and others may not see at all . So it could be a range of ways it displays itself , and it's often where the job is interdependent and also it's when there's a significant impact . So either to the job , people just don't work as well or effectively together , or somebody is really hurt so they can still work effectively , but they're doing it with a heavy heart , they don't enjoy the job and over time it will have an impact on their engagement and their just enjoyment of doing the job .
Speaker 1OK , that's really interesting , because I think one of the things that people tend to do is they have a very negative connotation about what conflict is . It is a sense of failure , but in some ways , what you're saying is is that it's a little bit of an inevitable part of people working together . People are going to come into conflict at some point hopefully not very often , but it's going to happen and it's not necessarily a sign that somebody's a manager , for example has failed in some way .
Speaker 3No , I don't think . I think it can be a positive thing if parties see it that way and sometimes they don't . You know , the term conflict often does have negative connotations but if they're open to acknowledging that there is a problem and sometimes it's difficult , you know sometimes you get where both parties acknowledge that there is a problem , sometimes where one of the parties does , or maybe neither do really . But if they're open to having a discussion you know , listening to each other and having a difficult conversation then they can sort of clear the air and it can hopefully lead to a positive way forward . It might take a bit of time , but that will be the starting point to have that discussion and hopefully clear the air .
Speaker 1Okay , now we've got an idea of what we mean by conflict . Why is it a problem , dave ? What do you think about this ?
Speaker 3Well , it can make the working relationship really difficult , it can be really fractious . So one of the things that often goes is trust . So I mean that's really important in folk working together efficiently is they trust each other to some degree . You know , if somebody says they'll do something , they can rely on them to do it and to you know , do what they say . When that goes and I think that's obviously often I see one of the first casualties of conflict is that people don't trust each other and then they start working independently of each other and the engagement goes so trust is really important and we actually we know quite a lot from some of the research that's been done that trust , as you mentioned , leads linked to engagement and potentially then to productivity .
Speaker 1So trust is a key issue here . Why do you think it's a bit of a taboo around conflict ?
Speaker 2I think that managers see it as an admittance of failure . The view can be in organizations where we treat everyone fairly , we've got really good policies . So you know we don't have conflict . You know . But the fact is that conflict happens regardless of how good your policies are , and not least because it can happen because of a miscommunication or a personality clash or it might be that , you know , two colleagues have been friends with each other for years outside work , then get into an argument and that that gets brought into the workplace , and those are things that are really outside of the control of of employers . You know policies and practices . That's something that just something that just happens in in life , as it were , but which gets brought into the workplace .
Speaker 1I guess that in in in some situations , the fact that conflict is coming to the surface is not necessarily a negative thing , because it might be because an organization is asking questions and has policies in place that give people the opportunity to , to vote , to voice some issues . So in some respects , the the fact that conflict is is visible might actually be the sign of a quite open culture in an organization yeah , I guess .
Speaker 2I mean there's different types of conflict . I mean , yeah , conflict in the sense of let's have a uh , you know , a really good discussion about something and you know , and be able to acknowledge that we have different views on things , or to come together to try and problem solve something , yeah , that can be , that can be very constructive . But it's when there isn't that sort of understanding or shared sort of view on how to tackle a problem , or where things are much more personal , that conflict has a much more negative impact .
Speaker 1So the fact that managers sometimes feel quite reluctant to talk about conflict and not just managers , actually senior managers , but Dave does that have ? Does that reluctance have some implications for how conflict is managed and whether managers actually sort of grasp these issues or not ?
Speaker 3Well , I mean , if they don't talk about these issues then it's hard to resolve them . And I know in some organisations , as Sarah said , there's a culture of at least acknowledging that conflict and difficulties can happen where people work together . But if they don't talk about these issues it's really hard to resolve them . I mean I always try to encourage communication , talking , listening to each other , but it's not easy . I mean I always try to encourage communication , talking , listening to each other , but it's not easy . I mean , when people have fallen out it's really difficult . And if it doesn't happen , if that conversation , that acknowledgement that a problem exists , then resentment can really build and it can be really quite dangerous to the working relationship and damaging to the efficiency of the team .
Speaker 1For you , sarah , would you say that sort of early getting in there early is really important for managers .
Speaker 2Yeah , no , absolutely . I think you know , being a manager sort of being aware that there might be issues , you know , is really important , but and and so getting in early so that you can start discussing things before people get really sort of entrenched in their points of view , before kind of people have started to take sides within the team and it started to ripple out , yeah , I mean , as early as you can get in , the better . Just to try and find out what you know , what the conflict is . Better just to try and find out what you know , what the conflict is about , but what sits below it , what you know what has caused it , because it can be quite apparently minor things but but which build up and which then , you know , create much more , um , overt conflict amongst teams yeah , absolutely so that early , resolute , early , early action really is is key in many of these situations , dave , in your experience , what do you think some of the causes of conflict ?
Speaker 3are . I mean the ones I commonly see are personality clashes , certainly , but also their behaviours . It's just the way we are as human beings can rub others up the wrong way , and often it's not done intentionally , it just has that aggravating effect , but also things like lack of clarity in roles , so there could have been not a great deal of communication about what the job entails and what the expectations are , and this can lead down the road to some problems poor communication , but bullying , micromanagement , you know , and it's all about , um , how people perceive these things . So , with micromanagement , for the manager it might be look , I'm just doing my job . I'm , I want to make sure that you're doing your job well and I want to be there to support you . To the employee it could be get off my back . You know , I really can't operate effectively with you there managing in this way . So , yes , sarah .
Speaker 2I think the the the other kind of big issue that I see that causes conflicts is is the way in which policies are implemented , so where people perceive an unfairness in the way that um policies are applied , so that that might be the discipline agreements policy itself , or it might be around recruitment um .
Speaker 1You know , if if people perceive that they are treated differently from other colleagues or more senior colleagues , um , then that can cause a huge amount of resentment and then that that is the sort of thing that can end up with um in a grievance and and then potentially a tribunal claim okay , and I think I think for managers , one of the issues and it's linked very much to what , to what you just said there , sarah is that that I think that one of the difficulties is that they're having to juggle quite often operational pressures , so they've got their boss on their back saying , you know , we need to hit these targets , et cetera , and they're also trying to think about their team and they're trying to treat their team fairly and be consistent and communicate , and sometimes those things are quite difficult to to balance . So manager in quite managers can be in quite a difficult , difficult place with some of this , can't they ?
Speaker 2yeah , no , absolutely . And I think you know , increasingly over the the past few years , it seems like work has intensified and , um , people have have less , have less time . You know , a lot of organizations are very target driven and sometimes the , the sort of the , the attention that can be given to employment relations and managing conflict , that somehow gets gets lost , um , because of all the pressures that that there are on on on staff and on our managers in particular .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think it can be quite invisible , can't it ? And I think that one of the things that I think managers need to remember is that there are some long-term benefits to this . If you communicate with your team , if you take that time to have that chat , the short-term gains might not be too clear , but in the long-term , hopefully , the trust that Dave was talking about earlier will be built and and and productivity um will be improved as a as a result of that . Obviously , we're working at the moment in a really difficult situation with the covid19 pandemic , and a lot of us are working at home , and we're recording this on zoom , as many of us are these days . I just wondered both of you , sarah , first of all , have you seen any particular sort of new issues that have emerged because of the pandemic or because of the fact that we're working in different ways ?
Speaker 2there's certainly a danger that where people are communicating over email and zoom , where it's much more difficult to to um express yourself well or uh respond sensitively to to people and be aware of their reactions , um .
Speaker 2So I think that , yeah , the likelihood is that that more problems will be will be caused because of that sort of distance that people people have from each other and the fact that they're not actually seeing each other physically , you're not bumping into people in the same way , in an informal way , which might mean that you know where .
Speaker 2Think that where there has been a bit of a misunderstanding , you might be able to kind of clear things up and just have a chat that things you know . It's just not possible to for the virtual world to sort of mirror that in . In the same way , and I think you've also got this problem of of workplaces now being more fragmented in terms of you know you'll have your frontline staff who are going into work , but you may have managers and senior managers and other people in the business um based at home , and so there's a sort of bigger divide um between those groups of staff which you know a might cause resentment , but also perhaps you're not seeing things that you might have seen as a manager if you were actually kind of there with your staff on a day-to-day basis yeah , it's really interesting what you say about those sort of non-verbal cues .
Speaker 1I was talking to somebody the other day who started in a new job recently and they were finding it really difficult working from home because they found it quite hard to get a sense from their manager about whether they were doing the right things or not . And you know , those sorts of having a quick coffee or the informal interactions can be really reassuring in those situations . So I think you make a really good point about it's really easy for misunderstandings , particularly and dave , how about you on on this particular issue , because obviously we're all having to do this at the moment what , what things have you seen ?
Speaker 3well , I think . I mean I agree with what you both
Managing Conflict in Remote Teams
Speaker 3said . I think these calls , these zoom calls and stuff are quite staged at times and people are getting used to dealing with them quite , you know , informally and naturally , and so they don't have those quick five minute chats as you both said really . So it's got to book in an hour for a meeting and it's a bit formal . Really it shouldn't be formal because we're at home in situations we feel comfortable with . But somehow this crossover between working and home life has caused tensions and I know that some people and also because a manager can't see a member of staff and a staff can't see a manager , you know , there's , like I don't know , any feelings of distrust about whether somebody's getting on with their job as they should do are harder to check on and any checks are seen , as you know , micro management yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1So managers really need need to think about that the some of the some of the ways in which they might have managed face-to-face might be might be very different in in this sort of new reality . Of course , lots of people are still working face to face . We should say um , just just to finish with , I mean , I think for a lot of us and we've sort of We've touched on this in terms of the fact that managers quite often , quite understandably , are reluctant to really address conflict . Sometimes , if we were going to give managers some advice in terms of trying to resolve conflict in their team , but they're really dreading it and I think a lot of people do dread it what sort of basic advice might you give them ? What sort of things do they need to think about , sarah ? How about you basic advice might you give them ?
Speaker 2what sort of things do they need to think about Sarah ?
Speaker 2How about you ?
Speaker 2So I think the the first thing is that managers need to ensure that they're regularly sitting down with staff , so they need to have a regular , ongoing relationship , um with their staff so that actually when things do arise , they they will pick them up earlier , but they'll also feel they also feel more comfortable already with that member of staff .
Speaker 2So I think it's that underlying relationship initially , um , but then when they do see things breaking down , then you know you need to .
Speaker 2You need to try and speak to that member of staff , find out what's going on , not make assumptions about , uh , you know what you think it might be , but sort of try to be supportive , um , and also try to find out really what you know , what you think it might be , but sort of try to be supportive and also try to find out really what you know , what is you know underneath the issue . And if it's , if it's a conflict between two members of staff , then you know you might be trying to encourage them to go and have a conversation with their colleague and maybe help them think through you know what they want to say to that person , how to say it without making things worse , and getting to think about what the key issues are and you know what the impact that the issue , you know that the conflict is having on them and their work , and you know what do they want to change , but also challenge them a bit and see what they might need to change .
Speaker 2And that , effectively , is what we would do as mediators in the first stage of a mediation , but I think it's it's you , it's a useful approach for for managers as well , um , and I think , though , the other issue is that they they need to be really clear about where their responsibilities lie in terms of managing appropriate behavior and performance and what the issues are for maybe two individuals to try and sort something out between themselves , you know , where where is it that it's just a relationship breakdown or personality or miscommunication , and where is it that you know someone is simply not behaving in the appropriate way , in which case that is very much for the manager to to deal with that , uh , and address that and and I suppose that's where sort of the acting as you mentioned before , acting sort of fairly inconsistently comes in , so that people know what their expectations are , what the what are acceptable behaviors and sort of unacceptable behaviors .
Speaker 1Dave , dave , how about ? How about you ? Have you had an inexperienced manager in front of you who was sort of really not looking forward to dealing with some conflict in their team ? What sort of advice would you give her or him ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I don't think they would be expected to be experts in this area , and often new managers think that they've got to come up with the answer . You know , I'm the manager and my staff will expect me to have the right answer . Well , I don't think it's about that , and often in trying to deal with conflict , it's about having the conversations . The resolutions are often quite simplistic , but the most crucial and positive thing is that people have had a chance to talk these things through .
Building Trust Through Communication
Speaker 3So of course , we have to bear in mind what Sarah was saying .
Speaker 3The procedures have to be followed , and if managers have to do the stuff they have to do , then that's fine . But if it's about trying to understand what's gone wrong in the relationship , you know , I think that you just have to sit down and listen to people and give them a chance to voice , and a a lot of managers don't understand that they're not , you know , always expected to come up with the perfect answer . You know they have to have time for their staff as well . You know they've got to give them time , and I don't think that big problems can be resolved in five minutes .
Speaker 3And it may be it takes a series of meetings , you know so don't expect to have one meeting and everything's going to be hunky-dory , because it's not like that . You know , it takes , takes time sometimes , but as long as people can see an end goal in sight , I think that can be positive . They're working towards an end goal .
Speaker 1I think that the thread between sort of your two responses to that question does lie in the fact that if managers have some of those sort of key sort of listening and questioning skills and have regular conversations , then if they have to have a difficult conversation , that's going to be much , much easier to do because there's going to be that element of trust there . But developing some of the skills that we're looking at in this course , for example , at least provides them with some of the skills that we're looking at in this course , for example , at least provides them with with some of the tools that they need to have those conversations , address those issues early and hopefully resolve some of them in the longer term . Thanks very much . It's been really fascinating and and I'm sure that everybody listening to that will have picked up some really useful advice and tips that they can put into practice in the future .