Skilled Managers
In this podcast Professor Richard Saundry, one of the UKs leading authorities in conflict management will be exploring the challenges faced by managers dealing with conflict and difficult issues at work. Richard, with the help of a range of invited guests will discuss some of the thorny problems that managers are confronted with and provide expert advice on what managers can do to resolve issues effectively.
Skilled Managers
Resolving conflict in your team
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Some of the most difficult situations faced by managers involve conflicts between staff. These can be very personal and have negative impacts that ripple right through a team. In this episode, Richard is again joined by Terry Duffy from Acas. Terry is Acas’s Strategic Growth Partnership Lead but he’s also one of the UKs most experienced mediators. Terry and Richard will be looking at how you can use some key aspects of mediation to resolve conflicts within your team.
Resolving Team Conflicts Through Mediation
Speaker 1Hello , I'm Professor Richard Saundry , and this is the Skilled Managers Podcast . Today , I'm joined once again by Terry Duffy . Terry is ACAS's Strategic Growth Partnership Lead . He's also one of the UK's most experienced mediators . In this episode , we'll be looking at how you can use some key aspects of mediation and mediation skills to resolve conflicts within your team . To do this , we're going to use a scenario which I came across recently . In this case , an experienced member of staff confided in one of her colleagues about a personal issue . Unfortunately , this information soon became common knowledge , with rumours and gossip spreading throughout the team . Not surprisingly , the individual concerned was really upset by this and felt humiliated and betrayed . So she went to see her manager to make a complaint . So the first thing I asked , terry , was if you were the manager , how would you respond ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think what I would advise is that the manager enters into what I would call listening mode . First of all , this is obviously a person who feels as you've said , can I say , betrayed , humiliated . They're very , very strong feelings and you know they come from a place where they had confided in somebody , so somebody they trusted . Something has been broken for them and that can lead to feel very , very vulnerable and hurt . So I think you need to be empathetic and show that you're interested , because one of the temptations is to almost like look for a way to ignore this because it is a personal matter and you know you could like , on one reading , say , well , it's nothing to do with work .
Speaker 2Well , this is one of your employees who has been affected by something which has happened in the workplace . Yes , it might have been about a matter that was confidential , which isn't really of your concern , but what they're telling you about is my relationship with a member of my team , and indeed the wider team , has broken down . That should be something of concern to the , to the manager , and they need to . Can I say look for ways to support that individual and look for ways to explore how that that problem can be addressed and repaired there's a danger , isn't there ?
Speaker 1because if the manager doesn't actually recognize the distress even if they might , if they , even if they might think somebody is overreacting a little bit , perhaps , if they , if they don't , if they don't recognize the fact that this is a real problem for that individual , if they don't treat that with respect , there is a danger that person walks out of the office and , you know , a couple of weeks later there's a resignation letter in the you know resignation email coming through to that manager . They've lost a key member of staff who they've got to replace and train somebody else again , and it may well have a other people in the team will also see how that's been handled by the manager . So how that manager responds is really quite important . Irrespective of their own individual views on the issue , they need to listen and they need to show due respect to that individual's concerns they do .
Speaker 2Richard , yeah , and it's critical and like another thing that you put , you portrayed one callous outcome there , which could be that the person actually does ultimately leave um , but they might also stay as well and can say one of the issues you've got there is you've got somebody who is , I mean , when you think about it , the manager .
Speaker 2Um could see this as a real positive step from the individual , that this person feels comfortable to actually come to the manager and raise this issue .
Speaker 2Now , if the manager doesn't act in the right way , all kinds of communication that that manager may have sent out , then about come to me . If you've got any issues and all that are just going to be falling on deaf ears , because a person will have had an experience where they did come to the manager and nothing happened about it . So so I think there's that that issue about can I say , the manager's role and can I say their relationship with , can I say , members , members of their team , and , of course , if the issue doesn't get get addressed , we're probably not looking at a an effective and efficient can I say team any longer , because there's probably going to be less communication between the team . There may be conflict that arises um retaliatory type behavior from this individual who feels betrayed , so as well as kind of say , sickness , absence and resignations and all those kinds of problems so what we were advising the manager to do in this instance is , in the first instance , is to listen , be open .
Speaker 1Use all the questioning and listening skills that we've talked about through the skill managers course , for example , um , what are they seeking ? Are they seeking to try to get anything out of that conversation ? Are they just listening ? Are they that initial conversation ? Are they trying to ? Is that manager trying to shape an outcome , or what else do they need to do within that conversation to help them move towards a resolution ? Perhaps ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think there's a rhythm to that , can I say that pattern of listening . I think part of the listening may be just to , can I say , properly listen to understand how the individual feels and is impacted . There may be emotions that come alongside that . So there's got to be a degree of tolerance that the manager has to have to give the person time to be able to share that tolerance that the manager has to have to give the person time to be able to share that . But part of that listening will be to , can I say , pick up perhaps indications of what the person is looking for . So , so when I say rhythm there were , it's not just one way . I think . Can I say listening will , can I say , necessarily involve me summarizing , reflecting back , reflecting back so that I can show that I understand where the individual is coming from , but then to try and identify where is it that we might need to go to try and recover , repair or resolve this situation for you yeah , and that's really crucial , isn't it ?
Speaker 1I mean , you know , it then provides a little bit of a roadmap , because different people will want different outcomes . Some people might want an apology , some people might want to talk it over with that individual , some people might just having the conversation with the manager might be enough for them in order to be heard and therefore they feel like they can perhaps , you know , go back to work . So it's about trying to letting them lead that element of the conversation . I mean , let's suggest that you know that conversation leads to a situation where the individual , it's clearly bothering them . They want a resolution , they want the manager to address the issue with the other person . How does the manager go about this ?
Speaker 1I mean , just again , just to sort of throw something else in there .
Effective Conflict Resolution Strategies
Speaker 1I mean , I've seen situations where the manager has listened and their response has been to sort of open the office door , call the other person in and try to sort of thrash out the issue . Is that a good idea ? Is that something that can work ? How ? How should they respond to sort of moving , moving the situation and addressing it with the other person , with the person who potentially has you know , has been that been , has created the problem here ?
Speaker 2yeah , I think in the involvement of the other person is vital to the resolution of this , can I say situation . So what I would always advise against is saying all right , you've told me what the problem is , leave it with me . I will just go and have that word over there , because there's a gap there there . Right , the individual like may trust in me but still feels that does the person who I feel has betrayed me properly understand how I have been affected by what they've done ? Unlikely if a third party is trying to convey it and so the so I think the involvement of can I say that other person is vital , because what is , what is , can I say broken here is ? Can I say that other person is vital Because what is , can I say broken here is ? Can I say trust between two individuals and ultimately only those two individuals can , can I say agree to repair that . Can I say trust between them ? Yeah , but I would you know when we talk about can I say what the response should look like ? I would never . Can I say do it in the moment . About can I say calling the person immediately in because again they might be ? Can I say just defensive to can I say that situation . So I think we've got to create the right environment for that . Can I say , discussion to be facilitated .
Speaker 2Now I think the manager has a role to play here and it might be at the first instance to talk and sketch that out to the individual and say , look , we need to do something here . Obviously we need to . Can I say , involve the other person . Let's talk about how we could do that and what that could look like . And I think that would be the first step that the manager would take to , can I say , calling that person in privately to say , look , something's been brought to my attention . I want to kind of say , address it , I want to hear from you as well . And then can I say the secondary stage would be okay , let's agree to get together where we can kind of say , openly have that discussion between the three of us so that perhaps we can make some progress , to clear in the air or agree in a way forward yeah .
Speaker 1So in a in a way , you've got quite a nice structured process there , haven't you , where initially you have the conversation with the person who's bringing the concern to you , then about having a conversation with the other party and then potentially playing it from there . But that could be be , for example , bringing those people together for a conversation when you raise it with the other party . There's a danger here . I think a lot of managers would be concerned that having that conversation could lead to some quite defensive responses , because nobody likes to be told that some one of their colleagues has got concerns with them or is accusing them of , you know , misbehaving in some way or breaking a confidence , whatever it might be . I think you know it may well be that initially , when you raise that with with the other person , that that you're going to get quite you could get quite a negative response .
Speaker 2I'm just wondering how you might advise a manager how to handle that or how to approach that , that particular meeting with the , the person who is being complained about yeah , and that is absolutely uh uh normal that the people can , like , say , respond in that way , and I think that's one of the things that the manager can do , you know , is to turn around and say look , it's absolutely fine , you know , like , like , I'm bringing something to you from another person , and I think it's for the manager to say it's not me who is saying this , it's me who's bringing the matter to your attention . I want to hear what you've got to say . So I think , creating that there will be the initial reaction to it , but I think if the manager is clear that this isn't this , is the end of it . I'm just telling you what you have done is wrong and what you were actually offering is the opportunity to . I need to hear what you've got to say . I think that can bring some barriers down .
Speaker 2Obviously , the next step is I need to bring you both together where you can have that direct conversation about what you believe you were allowed to say or share , or whatever it might be . You can have that conversation directly , because me , being a Calixier , a third party conduit , can only go so far . So I think you're right , there will be Calixier defensive reaction , but I think , just being open with them , that you're not judging that individual . But you can't . You've got to be clear . When somebody comes to you as a manager and says that they have an issue or a concern , it is your job as a manager to try and address that .
Speaker 1But you're addressing it away , which is which is involving the individual yeah , and I think in my experience , something I've found is sometimes having those individual conversations if you allow a bit of space for them to say how they feel , there can sometimes be a bit of a process of self-reflection , because they might be shocked , they might be defensive , might even be a bit angry to begin with , but then they might just start to think a little bit about oh , maybe I've got this wrong , you know , maybe I shouldn't have done that .
Speaker 1Actually they might not want to admit it , but it might just start a bit of a process whereby they come to terms with the fact that maybe they've overstepped the mark , maybe they've done something which actually they regret a little bit . Yeah , what would you do if either of those well , particularly the person you've just spoken to , again , the person against who the complaint has been made doesn't want to do that , says it's nothing , it's all rubbish , I don't want to talk to him , or I don't want to talk to her . What would you do as a manager in that situation ?
Speaker 2Well , I think as a manager , we're taking out almost like a mediation style approach to this situation , but we're not strictly doing mediation . Now , one of the things about mediation is it clearly is voluntary and if somebody doesn't want to participate in mediation , then they don't have to . We're talking about something slightly different here . We're talking about , can I say , something where somebody has said the behaviors of one of my team members is unacceptable . Now , the manager does have some skin in the game here and I think what they can do is say look , well , I'm going to call that meeting because I think it's important for the air to at least be cleared and I'll determine how that meeting is going to take place . But it will involve , can I say , the opportunity for both of you to have your say .
Speaker 2I think the manager can kind of say carry on that . Can I say conversation , make sure that both parties have the opportunity to . Can I say , say where they're coming from . And the manager can I say leave it with , can Iixay ? And understanding that the past has happened and the expectation going forward is that they have had the opportunity to share where they were coming from , about what they did and why they did it . But going forward , there's an expectation that they are able to work together . So it's almost like moving to more and more directive . Calixay outcome following Calixay , a bit of facilitation . So I think , even if you get people who say , well , I don't want to do it , I don't think it's unreasonable for a manager to turn around and say , well , look , let's just sit down and let's have that chat amongst us .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah . And in terms of how you handle that joint meeting because that could be quite fraught , you've got two people , one of whom is hurting a bit is that could be quite fraught . You've got two people , one of whom is hurting a bit is very sensitive to the situation . The other person might feel like they've , as you said earlier . They might feel quite defensive , they might be quite embarrassed about what they've done . So there's some tricky emotions going on there . How would you approach , or how would you advise and manage to approach that meeting when you bring the two of them together ?
Speaker 2I think there's three things really . I think I would make sure I had a structure that was clear to everybody about how it was going to actually operate , because most people aren't familiar with this . You know getting called into the manager's office isn't where they want to be familiar with this . You know getting called into the manager's office isn't where they want to be , particularly if it is about kind of says something that they have been alleged to have done or indeed the person who actually has to say what they're upset about both of those things . And a structure can kind of be helpful to all sides , that we're going to come together , what you're going to do as the manager , what you expect of each individual . So I think structure is , can I say , very important there . And indeed what's going to happen ? Can I say , after we've had that discussion , I think , behaviours .
Speaker 2Can I say a secondary part of that . I would spell out exactly that this is a work related meeting and I would expect certain behaviours to to be in place . So I'm looking for elements of fairness by allowing people to have the opportunity to to speak without interruption , not be talked over , people to perhaps remain seated , you know . So giving respect to each other , maybe accepting that we can say are going to view things differently . So I've set out some , can I say , ground rules around expected behaviours . And I think the third thing was that point you made about can I say , the timing of things . So I wouldn't , can I say , move immediately from my meeting with , can I say , the individual to going straight out and having a conversation with , can I say , the person who's alleged to have done something and then pulling them straight into't say , a meeting . I would might create a little bit of a pause between those meetings , just so people can can reflect and just get themselves ready for it . But I wouldn't leave that too long , richard .
Speaker 2You know , sometimes if you leave it too long , that can be a problem . So you're looking almost for like a Goldilocks . Can I say timing to this ? Not too short , not too long , just right .
Speaker 1It's probably the day after a couple of days , depending on the situation , but that cooling down period can be really quite valuable because , again , it's that reflection A bit of time after you've had those individual meetings , because they go home they think , maybe , maybe I was a bit , yeah , maybe , yeah , maybe I've been a bit indiscreet . Um , actually , at the meeting itself we've got , though you've mentioned ground rules , one thing that I've always found can be quite powerful is getting each of the parties to to giving them a little bit of uninterrupted time just to say how they're feeling , because again , it gives them a voice , but also the other person listening to that can just start to set those cogs whirring about , just challenging their own own preconceptions a bit sometimes . So I mean again , would you , would you start with that , that meeting , after you've set down the ground rules , would you give each of them a bit of time to say right , so do you want to explain the situation , etc .
Speaker 2I would , yeah , I would I , I do think it's useful because I think it's it's powerful on all kinds of levels . Richard , I think it's powerful for the individual to have the opportunity to have their say . I think that is very , very important because only they can truly convey how they feel . Me as the third party I can't , can't do it , I can try but I can't quite do it . And I think it's powerful for the individual who is hearing that , that they hear it from the individual . So if they hear it from me as a third party , um , they don't get the emotion , they don't get the , they don't get the effect it's had on me as an individual . And that can be incredibly powerful in making people shift and move from where they believe they are and reflect and think . Well , maybe I did do it or maybe I didn't intend it , but I clearly had this effect and I can give some recognition back to that .
Managing Conflicts Within a Team
Speaker 2I think there is a bit that I would also do in terms of preparing people for this , you know , in terms of telling them what we're going to do .
Speaker 2I would ask them to think about how they can get that across in the best possible way . So it can be natural , for , can I say , the person who feels hurt to go on the attack , and I would perhaps ask them to reflect and think is that the best way that they can get their message across about how they have been impacted to the individual and the person who is perhaps having to listen to this ? I would ask them to perhaps not just immediately react and be defensive and to give some time to actually genuinely listen to what the person's saying , because I think one of the problems you have in any conflict situation like that , richard , is that if you're telling me how you've been affected by what I've done , I stop listening because I'm starting to prepare my defense and when I'm preparing my defence , I'm not genuinely taking in the things that , like I say that uninterrupted time is there to do so , yeah , I would do a bit of . I think it's an incredibly powerful thing to do , but it needs to be managed carefully .
Speaker 1Then that comes back to those individual meetings and why they're so important , because that's why you're doing that little bit of coaching and preparation . Aren't you to try to get them in the right headspace ? Or , you know , give , give them a few techniques or tactics to so that you know they're approaching this with a , you know , a slightly more constructive attitude so they can get something out of it . And then you've got them in the room , they've had their say . Hopefully things haven't gone too off the tracks already . How do you then move towards trying to get a resolution , terry ? What sort of techniques and you're a very experienced mediator what sort of techniques would you use to try to get them to develop some sort of joint solution to that , the particular problem that you're all facing ?
Speaker 2yeah , that that shift from kind of say the past to the future , um , needs to be done , uh , and it needs to be done at the right time , so not to to cut people off too early . So make sure we've properly got the issue out . And people have probably felt heard . I think the shift is to kind of say then start thinking about what would they have liked to have been done or what could look better in the future . So it's a little bit future focused , imaginary thinking .
Speaker 2Sometimes people adopt to this quite thinking . Sometimes people adopt to this quite quickly and they know exactly . Can I say what they need to do . Others , you might need to facilitate a little bit more and draw it out , so you might ask them to kind of think about , can I say , a situation where it was handled best in the past so they can stop focusing on . Can I I say , the thing that went wrong and start building something that they want to kind of say go , go right in the future . Now , all of these , can I say , solutions .
Speaker 2I think what we're trying to do is the reason we're doing this , rather than just turn around saying right now , you've had your say , this is what we're going to do going forward me dictate that as the manager . So we're trying to get ownership , um , yeah , you know , and and buy-in from the individuals , and I think that's far more um embedded if they come up with what they want their future relationship to look like , or what their future can I say , interactions , or if I share something with you in the future . This is the expectation I can have of you . You know , if they agree that between themselves , they're almost , like , morally bought into it , richard , rather far more strongly than a manager coming along and saying this is what you're both going to do going forward , that can work to a degree , yeah , yeah , and that's going to be more sustainable , isn't it ?
Speaker 1because you know , if you impose a solution on people as a manager , in the short term that might work and then you , as the manager , might feel quite pleased with that outcome , but the likelihood is it's much less likely to stick because , as you mentioned before , they don't have any ownership of that .
Speaker 1Um , just lastly , I want to just just change the scenario slightly , um , because I think sometimes you have situations where which aren't necessarily work related , where it's a personal issue , where people have there's a relationship problem , and that that's sort of ideally suited to the sort of process that we've talked about , but a very common scenario that a lot of the managers that that that that I've worked with come across is where perhaps they , they manage people , who manage people , and somebody makes a complaint about their line manager it might be their team leader or their supervisor , and so the manager is faced with a conflict between a junior member of staff and a manager who who reports to them and quite often the the accusations or the concern might be around my manager is bullying me , or my manager is treating me unfairly , or is picking me out for particular treatment , or is ignoring me .
Speaker 1You know tends to revolve around those sorts of things . Can you use the same sort of process , do you think ? And if so , does it need to be handled in a slightly different way ? I was wondering , you know how ? How might you adapt that approach to you to deal with that sort of situation , which is about a work related issue , which is about a manager trying to manage one of their staff ? How might that differ , do you think ?
Speaker 2I think you can use that , the , the approach we we've talked about , which is , uh , an intervention , because I think we're agreed .
Navigating Interpersonal Conflict in Organizations
Speaker 2Um , if something has been reported , you can't ignore it . You know there is . Can I say that's a fact , somebody is reporting something due that they have a problem , and if they're reporting that that is feelings of unfair treatment or , can I say , bullying , there are serious issues that you can I say any organisation should take seriously . But in taking it seriously , you need to collect , say , perhaps do that that thing that we talked about earlier , which was just just have that conversation , learn a little bit more , do some inquiry , you know , and that will involve , can I say , maybe , that discussion with the individual who has come to you and is making that galaxy complaint , as well , as can say the individual about who the complaint is about .
Speaker 2And again , what we're trying to do there is get a better understanding of what this issue is . So if it's an issue , for example , where a line manager is managing somebody on a performance-related issue and that's the context or the background to the complaint and they feel that the way that is being done , then that's the that you've clearly got an issue there that they feel unfairly treated . The manager who you may speak to might say well , I'm managing , it's my job to manage and that's that's what that's what I'm doing .
Speaker 2So I I think what I would do there is I'd be very careful to say I'm not stepping in to be the line manager in this situation . So I think we need to separate the two issues out . One is there is a potential performance issue , so let's just park that for now . But clearly , what exists between you is one of you feels you are being unfairly treated and indeed bullied . What exists between you is one of you feels you have been unfairly treated and indeed bullied , and the other feels that you are just doing your job .
Speaker 2If there isn't any evidence that calix a , that the calix a direct bullying is going on , what we're dealing with is the fact that they both feel in a different way .
Speaker 2So I think the mediative , facilitator type approach would be appropriate to deal with those feelings between them . And , as you said , it's a classic for an interpersonal conflict . But we need to kind of say , maybe strip out the baggage of the performance issue which might get in the way , just to look at what , what is happening in those conversations , rather than talking about the substance or content of the performance issue . How is that issue being dealt with and how are you feeling in one way and how are you feeling with another ? So I think there's a potential there for it to be done , but I think there's things that that manager would need to consider about whether they were the appropriate person to do it as well , richard , because I think there are some potential conflicts of interest in there that they would have to think through guess you might have a situation where the the manager against whom the complaint's been made may feel like they're not being backed up by their manager .
Speaker 1There's all there's quite . It's quite a complex situation , but I think the key thing that you mentioned there is about the process here is about trying to fix or mend or rebuild the relationship so that those issues can be dealt with in a more reasonable way or in a way in which is potentially a little bit more sustainable .
Speaker 2And I think that dynamic of can I say this almost like senior manager being the person who carries out the facilitation . I'm thinking it from the point of view of , like the manager . Now , well , this is their line manager who is saying you need to be involved in this . How how can I say much um agency do they have over calix ? A ? Uh , being part of that kind of conversation , very little . But thinking in it from the person who's made the complaint as well , they've been forced to make this complaint because of how they feel . But they might be looking at it and saying , yeah , but that's his manager . So are they really going to be able to genuinely be able to kind of say , look at this independently ? So that's where some of the some of the features of sometimes turning to an independent person to do it can come in .
Speaker 2Richard , you know that you might think actually the situation needs that mediative and mediation style approach , but we perhaps need somebody who is a bit distant from it to allow both the parties to it to feel invested in it and feel fairly treated throughout it .
Speaker 1And so that could be getting somebody , perhaps , if there's somebody suitably trained elsewhere in the organisation , to come in and do it Somebody from HR perhaps , who's suitably trained . Or it might be going to somebody like ACAS to bring in a mediator Is one way around that . For the senior manager in this scenario to actually discuss it with the individual and say are you happy for me to handle this ? Absolutely , you actually get their views because it may well be that the , the the employer's made the complaint doesn't particularly want to involve hr , they don't particularly want to involve someone from outside and they might trust the more senior manager . So again , it's about I guess it's the , the , the . The lesson really from all this is about having that open conversation and allowing the parties concerned to drive the outcome . That's the nub of this , isn't it in some way ?
Speaker 2I think so . Yeah , I mean it's like whenever , you , whenever , can I say we've carried out mediations or indeed trained people to mediate us . We always , we always talk to them about , can I say , the concept of objections to mediation , why people might not want to mediate . Now those objections can be um , obvious . People turn around and says I don't want to do it , and then you need to address that and say what is it about doing this mediation ? That perhaps you , maybe information or some more galaxy explanation of what the process looks like , could answer that objection for you . But some of the objections are less obvious , that people are not going to say I don't want to do it . So therefore , the mediator I think needs to be , or the person who's going to carry this out needs to be , proactive in seeking out whether people are OK and I think what you've described there by being transparent about you know who I am .
Speaker 2I'm that person's line manager . You know I'm the senior person . Are you okay , if I can I say carry this out , can be a way of , can I say , just eliminating those objections . Thank you for asking . No , I am okay . Now you've asked me . So I think asking the question is the exact right way to go .
Speaker 1Yeah , giving people some options . A lot of this is about control over the process , isn't it ? Actually , if an individual whoever that individual is in any sort of informal type of resolution , feels like something's being imposed on them , that's problematic . If they feel like they've got choice , if they feel like they've got control , they're just more likely to engage in it .
Speaker 2Yeah , there's been many a time , richard , when I've gone into organisations , when organisations have approached ACAS for an independent mediator , and I've met , can I say , individuals one-to-one and the first thing I ask them is saying right , okay , I understand that you are interested in mediation and very often they would turn around and say no , I was told I had to come and talk to you .
Empowering Individuals Through Mediation
Speaker 2So in terms , of giving that control back , richard , I said , well , I'm here now . Is it worth us just having a chat about what I can do , what this mediation process is , and then seeing if you're , calix , a interested in taking forward ? And I've never had anybody who's not wanted to have that conversation and have then felt , can I say genuinely , that they are in control of deciding whether to go forward with mediation or not . So I think giving giving means you receive as well , you know . So you give information , you give agency to an individual . Usually what it gives back to you is they're willing to go along with that process because they trust you fantastic .
Speaker 1Well , again , just a huge amount of really valuable , valuable information and insights which I'm sure will help managers when they're faced with some of those really complex conflicts within their team . So thanks again , terry , and thanks everybody for listening . Thanks , richard .